<![CDATA[The Palimpsest: Sonder Union]]>https://www.owenmcgrann.com/s/sonder-unionhttps://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/$s_!5BLL!,w_256,c_limit,f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F9c034dba-bab5-4b4d-a13c-1d1d94924ca8_1200x1200.pngThe Palimpsest: Sonder Unionhttps://www.owenmcgrann.com/s/sonder-unionSubstackSat, 11 Apr 2026 04:12:39 GMT<![CDATA[29 - Gold Watches and Empty Cups]]>https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/gold-watches-and-empty-cupshttps://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/gold-watches-and-empty-cupsMon, 30 Mar 2026 09:33:09 GMT

]]><![CDATA[Ep 28 - Heart Animals and Finite Things]]>https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-28-heart-animals-and-finite-thingshttps://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-28-heart-animals-and-finite-thingsMon, 07 Jul 2025 09:48:30 GMTAmy lost her cat Roy two weeks before we recorded this episode. Seventeen years together. She called him her "heart animal"—if you know, you know.

What started as a conversation about grief turned into something bigger. We ended up talking about mortality, meaning, faith without religion, and why our culture sucks at dealing with death. Amy's been wrestling with the big questions lately, and she doesn't pretend to have easy answers.

She's also gotten really good at boundaries. There's a story in here about telling someone to fuck off (politely) when they kept asking for career advice while she was processing loss. It's beautiful.

This isn't a conversation about moving on or finding silver linings. It's about sitting with hard things and figuring out what actually matters when you're honest about the fact that everything ends.

People are more interesting than the shit they do for work. That's why this podcast exists.

Owen

Sonder Union is about the complex inner lives of interesting people. If someone forwarded this to you, you can subscribe to my media empire below:

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Reply to this email if you want to tell me something. I read everything.

]]><![CDATA[Ep 27 - Maybe Just Accept that You're Intense]]>https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-27-maybe-just-accept-that-yourehttps://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-27-maybe-just-accept-that-youreMon, 02 Jun 2025 09:57:15 GMTAfter a longer-than-intended hiatus, Sonder Union is back with a conversation that feels especially fitting at a moment when many things feel in flux. I sat down with Pat Patino, a fellow "reluctant sorta-lawyer" who's made the decision to stop practicing law after giving himself a six-month deadline to see if things would feel different. They didn't.

What follows is a wide-ranging discussion about intensity, the challenge of getting past the 90% threshold in anything, and what it means to live an impractical life. We cover everything from the Chinese literati to Crumble Cookies to the spiritual nature of legal practice, somehow managing to find coherence in the wandering. Pat's reflection on non-attachment and his Latin phrase "to the late comers are left the bones"—along with his question "what if the bones are the point?"—captures something essential about this moment many of us find ourselves in.

You can listen on Substack, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. As always, I'm grateful you're here for these conversations about the spaces between who we are and who we're supposed to be.

]]><![CDATA[Ep 26 - Enough Talking About Change]]>https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-26-enough-talking-about-change-45ehttps://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-26-enough-talking-about-change-45eMon, 13 Jan 2025 10:41:00 GMTHave you ever noticed that when leaders of organizations talk very loudly about making change, almost nothing meaningful changes?

Anastasia Boyko is a rare true changemaker and she was gracious enough to take a beat and talk with us about a whole bevy of topics from her unique vantage. Anastasia was born in Soviet Ukraine, made her way to Utah with her mother before the wall fell, worked her way to Yale Law and Manhattan Biglaw, into the world of legal tech, back to Yale to create an innovative leadership program, before moving to home/not-home Utah to find some new trouble to cause.

She's even more interesting than that recitation of things suggests.

You can find Anastasia on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anastasiaboyko/

]]><![CDATA[Ep 25 - Killing Your Guru]]>https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-25-killing-your-guru-be0https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-25-killing-your-guru-be0Mon, 04 Nov 2024 10:45:00 GMTTony Albrecht joins us for a master class in trolling me on TSwift before we inevitably jump into a long discourse on creativity and the lunacy of creatives.

No more need be said. Enjoy.

Find Tony on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tony-albrecht/

Visit CONTENDER: https://contenderllc.com/

]]><![CDATA[Ep 24 - Every Book is a Children's Book]]>https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-24-every-book-is-a-childrens-book-df8https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-24-every-book-is-a-childrens-book-df8Mon, 07 Oct 2024 09:40:00 GMTRobb Gilbear messaged me several weeks back and remarked how we were living on opposite ends of the child-rearing spectrum. I knew immediately that I had to have him join Sonder Union to talk through all the feels. I can't tell you how soothing it is speaking with Robb, although I suspect you'll get a sense from listening to this episode.

You can find Robb here:

  1. LinkedIn

  2. GrowthHabit

  3. Die Before They Do

]]><![CDATA[Ep 23 - The Point of a Magic Trick]]>https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-23-the-point-of-a-magic-trick-3b2https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-23-the-point-of-a-magic-trick-3b2Tue, 17 Sep 2024 09:35:00 GMTSome episodes of Sonder Union are a little serious and dour. I love those episodes, but this one certainly isn't one of them. Chris Sellers joins me, in his Trilby, to talk all about creativity, the way we torture and forgive ourselves, and the way we interact with the stories other people want to write for us.

Check out Chris at all of these places:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/c-s-sellers/

https://www.cssellers.com

]]><![CDATA[Ep 22 - Doing the Work You Want to Do]]>https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-22-doing-the-work-you-want-to-30ehttps://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-22-doing-the-work-you-want-to-30eMon, 02 Sep 2024 09:26:00 GMTMurray Gottheil joins Sonder Union to discuss how to think about work, retirement, and surviving a career in law. One of the most interesting figures in the legal corner of LinkedIn, Murray is as funny as he is opinionated. In other words, my kinda people.

You can find Murray here:

https://www.murraygottheil.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/murray-gottheil-58787b1/

]]><![CDATA[Ep 21 - When Focus Looks Like Distraction]]>https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-21-when-focus-looks-like-distraction-070https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-21-when-focus-looks-like-distraction-070Fri, 23 Aug 2024 09:55:00 GMTKyle Holden joins Sonder Union for a wide-ranging discussion between two folks with ADHD. This means there are many threads that seem incoherent that do get pulled together after what seems like too long a time. One of the things I love about the ADHD brain is that we can see connections between and among things that get incorporated in unpredictable ways in stories and what appear to be meandering discussions but end up being anything but.

Kyle and his wife, Lily Schurra, are amazing people and instant friends...even though I've spoken with them a sum total of three times. They own an amazing legal tech consultancy, which you can and should check out at: https://www.lolilegal.com/

]]><![CDATA[Ep 20 - The Medium is the Message]]>https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-20-the-medium-is-the-message-205https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-20-the-medium-is-the-message-205Wed, 14 Aug 2024 09:28:00 GMTIf you know me at all, you know that I have a book problem. I love them. I collect them. I study them -- and I don't mean the words in them (though I do that too), but the physical objects. You won't see me with a Kindle any time soon.

In this episode of Sonder Union, Toni Serofin joins us to talk about books, music, and art. It was a thoroughly enjoyable conversation with an absolutely fascinating woman.

You can find Toni on Linked in here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/toniserofin/

And at her website: https://sanserofin.com/

]]><![CDATA[Ep 19 - Growing Accustomed to the Alarm]]>https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-19-growing-accustomed-to-the-alarm-7echttps://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-19-growing-accustomed-to-the-alarm-7ecSat, 10 Aug 2024 19:11:44 GMTAfter a bit of a paternity leave of sorts, we're back with the one and only Graeme Johnson. Graeme is hands-down one of the more erudite folks in the legal community and I love talking with him, because I always come away learning something interesting and new.

You can find Graeme on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnstongraeme/

And you should check out what he's up to at https://www.juralio.com

]]><![CDATA[Ep 18 - The Proper Estimate of Oneself]]>https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-18-the-proper-estimate-of-oneself-086https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-18-the-proper-estimate-of-oneself-086Mon, 08 Jul 2024 10:11:00 GMTJohn Glicksman joins Sonder Union for this episode, in which I pepper him with questions about parenthood, music, confidence, and humility. He asked me if there was anything he needed to do to prepare and I said "Nope!" He was an absolute sport as I steered the conversation places that he had no warning of.

John is one of the smartest and most humble people I know and he brings that energy in this episode.

You can find him on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-glicksman-5991094/

]]><![CDATA[Ep 17 - Give a man a mask and he will tell you the truth]]>https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-17-give-a-man-a-mask-and-he-will-3e7https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-17-give-a-man-a-mask-and-he-will-3e7Mon, 03 Jun 2024 09:49:00 GMTMaking this podcast is such a joy: I just get to spend time picking amazing people's thoughts. This episode features Charley Mann, one of the nicest and most quietly insightful people I know.

Charley is a law firm business coach and he's damned good at that. I'm not super interested in that, though, for the purposes of Sonder Union. So we talk about his background in acting, the nature of performance, and Pokemon.

You can find Charley on his own podcast, They Don't Teach This in Law School. Check it out, especially if you are an attorney. It's a weekly listen for me.

Also hit up Law Firm Alchemy and sign up for the newsletter at https://www.lawfirmalchemy.com

You can find Charley on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/charleymann/

]]><![CDATA[Ep 16 - Time is a Flat Circle]]>https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-16-time-is-a-flat-circle-2e8https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-16-time-is-a-flat-circle-2e8Mon, 29 Apr 2024 09:41:00 GMTWhat's it like to talk with a friend for the first time in 23 years? Not because you had a falling out, but simply because life happens. Will it be like you just saw each other, or will it be awkward and weird?

Luka Poulton was kind enough to run this experiment with me and we have some answers to that riddle, at least for us. YMMV.

Luka and I had a pretty wide-ranging discussion and I'm pretty confident you'll find something in here to your taste, even if some of this is just old buddies catching up.

You can reach out to Luka on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lukapoulton/

All music copyright Owen McGrann

]]><![CDATA[Ep 15 - The Culture is Embedded in the Lanuage]]>https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-15-the-culture-is-embedded-in-778https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-15-the-culture-is-embedded-in-778Mon, 11 Mar 2024 12:22:07 GMTWhat a treat it is to speak with Dr. Theodora Ziamou! Theodora is a behavioral psychologist, and as you might expect, a keen observer of people. We have a wide-ranging conversation touching on language, culture, and change.

You can find Theodora on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drtheodoraziamou/

If you're interested in helping your customers make better decisions, you might want to visit https://www.enlexis.com

]]><![CDATA[Ep 14 - Mapmaking and Strategic Perplexity]]>https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-14-mapmaking-and-strategic-perplexity-ed1https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-14-mapmaking-and-strategic-perplexity-ed1Mon, 04 Mar 2024 11:00:00 GMTWhat do you talk about when you've got a guy who's won one of the world's toughest races on your podcast? Well, raising children, writing and reading books, and, yes, why doing hard things isn't about the hard thing, really, so much as about breaking bread with our inner animal.

Paul Watkins is a delightful guest: full of expected and unexpected wisdom and a wonderful sense of humor about things. He is able to appreciate Nassim Nicholas Taleb's work and still recognize what a gigantic douche he is.

You can find Paul at https://www.paulwatkins.com.au and on LinkedIn (where he's doing some actually interesting stuff) at https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-watkins-92125499/

Music copyright © Owen McGrann 2023.

]]><![CDATA[Queen Maeve and the Popcorn Man]]>https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/queen-maeve-and-the-popcorn-manhttps://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/queen-maeve-and-the-popcorn-manSat, 17 Feb 2024 15:19:02 GMTI've got something a bit different for you guys this week. Not exactly Sonder Union, not exactly On the Record. Somewhere in between yet not on the map at all.

I'd skip this if you don't want to hear a story about pregnancy loss or miscarriage.

Here's your link to Apple Pods and to Spotify.

Let me know what you think: this is a bit of an experiment. For reasons you might imagine after listening, I almost didn't let this out of the bag. Going with my gut that when I feel that way, it's important to ship it.

Best,
O

]]><![CDATA[Ep 13 - Queen Maeve and the Popcorn Man]]>https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-13-queen-maeve-and-the-popcorn-0cdhttps://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-13-queen-maeve-and-the-popcorn-0cdSat, 17 Feb 2024 13:35:17 GMTCharley Mann has "coffeesodes" on his podcast – short narrative episodes in between his interviews. I guess this is similar, except not really. Helpful description, I know.

If you don't want to hear a story about miscarriage or pregnancy loss, I would skip this one.

]]><![CDATA[Ep 12 - Babysitters and Cheerleaders]]>https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-12-babysitters-and-cheerleaders-a4chttps://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-12-babysitters-and-cheerleaders-a4cMon, 29 Jan 2024 11:20:00 GMTSarah Ennor and I both have ADHD. Although we didn't intend to talk almost exclusively about ADHD, it just kinda happened ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It was an absolute blast trading stories with Sarah and I suspect you'll find it pretty interesting too. Sarah has played Aussie Rules Football for Team Canada, worked as a badass lawyer for a large bank, opened her own business, and has made it a mission to speak about ADHD in the professional world.

She's awesome and you can find her on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-ennor/

Music copyright © Owen McGrann 2023.

]]><![CDATA[Ep 11 - On Losing Things]]>https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-11-on-losing-things-b7dhttps://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/ep-11-on-losing-things-b7dTue, 16 Jan 2024 11:48:55 GMTHappy New Year and welcome back to Sonder Union. We have a treat in this episode, with Lenor Marquis Segal returning to discuss why losing things is bad, the impact of Covid, and, of course, writing.

Lenor was a guest on Episode 3, The Irish Goodbye. She was a tremendous guest, and I was a tremendously shitty host. I kept cutting out during recording, leaving her hanging in the room, and then managed not to record the last 50 minutes of our conversation. She was gracious enough to come back.

You can find Lenor on LinkedIn (and you should: she's one of the very best writers around): https://www.linkedin.com/in/lenormarquissegal/

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